9 replies to this topic

[ＮoMos5]

The 'problem' I have with listing watches for sale on ebay is those little tempting adverts that pop up at the end on my listings...
'more chances to get what you want.....'
One such advert was for a fairly uninspiring watch titled 'antique silver trench watch' which when prowling the bay would have tempted me.

The description was equally nondescript..
Antique Silver Trench Watch Hallmarked in great condition for age approx 100 years. Original Brown Leather Strap in good condition. working but the minuet hand is slightly loose. Thank you Please view my other Antique and Vintage Items
the selection of photos that came with it were...


and importantly and the one that led to the impromptu purchase

At the time... I could not get my head around what I was looking at. The F.B. Borgel trademark was clear to see and I could just make out the 1918/19 date letter... but the internal case shot was baffling. Clearly not a 'screw case' or 'swing ring case'...
The watch that arrived led to my recent 'movement ID' thread....
Movement ID 1918 watch
After a light clean and a borrowed minute (as the slightly loose hand was very loose) hand here are some pics of what arrived.




Nothing particularly special thus far. Just a questions of how do you get the movement out of this 2-piece case?
With the bezel unscrewed, the stem release lever can be seen.



as pictured above, the lever is holding the stem in place. The lever can then be moved up (with a slight 'click) with a finger nail to release the stem.

the movement can now be lifted out. There is also a second notch in the case near '10' where a pin, in the side of the movement sits to hold the movement in place.

the lever can now be seen from the side

The case contains both Swiss and UK hallmarks (George Stockwell sponsors mark) dating the watch case to 1918/19.


The movement ID'd as an Adolf Schild appears to be in good working order...



What would be interesting to hear, has anyone come across a watch like this before - Positive set wrist watch with lever release stem, dating to before 1920? I have tried searching (currently without success) for a patent that relates to this method of stem release, which may correlate to the Brevet stamp on the movement. Unfortunately there is no patent number.
The above watch is in a Borgel case, but there may be other case design/manufacturers that used this system to which I have not seen? As this is the only example I have seen or can find, I don't have much to go on.
Any comments/thoughts very much welcomed!

[BonBon]

Looking at the case ànd the marks left by whoever did the letting in for the movement, I would have to say this is possibly a marriage. Still some swarf at the 10 position cut, I may be wrong but it looks recent and slightly "rough", something not normally seen on antique watch cases. Lovely looking case and movement though Marc, and I would be proud to own it. Get a nice crown though! Cheers, Bob.

[Jeffwo]

Hi Bobbee... I suppose my response to this is... what components form this marriage? 1. A Borgel case dating to 1918, to a design I have never seen before. 2. A AS movement with stem release system I have never seen before. Normally when looking at a marriage, you can see where the components parts come from.... I cant see how it can be? Happy to be proved wrong on that, if someone can show how a 'typical' threaded borgel screw case or swing ring case could have been adapted to form the above watch (fyi, there is no way it is either of those 2 cases)?

[Louis]

Marc, I was referring to the cuts in the case that allow the positioning pin at 10, and the stem release to sit in the case. They look rather basic in their undertaking, as if done by an amateur. Not the kind of work you would expect if done in the late teens. I'm not saying the movement or case are of poor quality, in fact they are both excellent, just the fitting together of the two. I think they have recently been put together, although I reserve the right to be totally wrong! Here is what I mean, this is the let in at the 10 position, very roughly finished with swarf at the edge. You would expect a better finish, or at least the bit of swarf to have worn away, it looks fresh to me.

[xxxptm]

Hi Marc Mighty interesting Surely a Borgel case, and I agree not one that I have seen before. The cutouts do look a bit 'crude', but as you say, this is not a standard screw or swivel Borgel case. Borgel/ Charles Rothen had a lot of patents, I have been through them, I will try to re-look if they had a case like this. Nice find. I like it Adam

[ward231]

Hi Bobbee,
I understand the comment... Like I say, you may be right....
When putting the movement back in, the pin has to sit in the notch/groove near 10 before the stem release lever will pass into its cut opening. The pin in the side of the movement is not the smoothest (and could be a replacement) which I would image could have contributed to the notches poor state. Someone ham fisted could have easily caused scratching - i.e. the seller!
The wear/dirt to the case would suggest recent would have been a few years ago. If put together, I still dont understand where the 2 parts came from?
Thanks Adam,
I have searched through the patents you suggest without finding anything... happy for another pair of eyes to look at it.
I suppose another way of looking at it... if the 2 notches were filled (before they were 'cut out' - which I dont currently think is the case), what are you left with... a sealed case with no way of fitting or removing a stem.
Marc

[quentinp33]

Marc In addition to above, and closer inspection. Is that truly a Francois Borgel legitimate Marque? The key looks wrong to me, and silver assay marks on top of case serial number? Maybe, a converted case and false FB marque? adam

[BonBon]

Interesting watch, I've never saw this variation before. Not your standard Borgel case with captive stem and pinset movement. I think it's a rare type for this case, there would be experimentation to find a solution to the fitting of a standard type movement with stem release in the Borgel 2 piece case with screw bezel. I say this because I too have a Borgel 2 piece case fitted with a standard stem release... but the solution to the problem is different to yours. There is a movement ring to which the stem tube is fitted. The movement is fixed in the movement ring and the stem tube slots into the case bottom and the bezel screws down as normal. It might be more common place than yours but I've never saw another.

[FeyM]

Hi Adam, The F.B. trademark looks correct to me.... since getting home I have checked this against a number of other examples I have to hand under magnification... I dont think this (or the other hallmarks) are faked. As for the multiple marks... this is not totally uncommon. I raised this in another thread with this Borgel: If I had to guess (and it would be a guess), is that the case in question was hallmarked in Switzerland first, nicely situated around the case serial number. Then imported to the UK for sale, it would pick up the sponsors, silver, assay office and date letter. It does not make sense why these would be faked? Thanks Radger, its a first on me! Have you a pic (maybe a thread?) of this... its sound more like a swing ring case... without the swing! What is the date on yours? The important detail in my is the stem release/setting... have you seen anything like this from this period?

[Heber]

Keep the original hand as you can easily tighten it to fit again with a staking set.